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Rajdowy build dla locka |
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Restor
Dołączył: 25 Paź 2007
Posty: 465
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 Wysłany: 2008-10-19, 14:18
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| Zakładam że haste i crit wynika z ich gearu i buffów. Przecież nikt z nas nie ma statsów na ich poziomie. Mówię oczywiście o relatywnym DPSie (stąd drugi i piąty a nie wartości bezwzględne). |
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Demelain 
alias Alishya
Dołączyła: 13 Lip 2007
Posty: 1923
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| Wysłany: 2008-10-19, 16:08
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| Ale nie wszystkie klasy skalują się ze sprzętem tak samo na tym samym etapie progressu. Być może SP gear daje magom lepszego buffa niż huntom. Choć, szczerze powiedziawszy, w niewielu walkach po patchu widziałam magów na topie w kategorii "all bosses" w wwsie. Tak btw zastanawia mnie mocno, skąd ci kolesie biorą te 60-75 proc. critów. Nie wiem, co ma mag w nowych talentach, ale ze sprzętu i buffów rajdowych, imo, po prostu nie da się tyle wyciągnąć :> |
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drzewo jest przegięte :roll: |
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Kwinto 
Piąte koło u wozu
Dołączył: 13 Lip 2007
Posty: 1866
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| Wysłany: 2008-10-19, 16:46
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| Alishya napisał/a: | | ci kolesie mają po 300-400 haste |
Speaking of...
Teraz [wow]Haste Potion[/wow] działa też na kasterów i nic nie wskazuje na to, żeby miał przestać działać na 80lvlu. Więc pytanie - czy ktoś ma? A jeśli nie, to może kupimy za gildiowe pieniążki, jeśli pojawi się na AH? |
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Demelain
alias Alishya
Dołączyła: 13 Lip 2007
Posty: 1923
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| Wysłany: 2008-10-19, 17:59
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I kolejna "laurka":
| Evidicus (forum Elitist Jerks) napisał/a: | I was recently asked by other Warlocks in my guild what my impressions have been about our class post-patch and looking ahead. I thought I'd share it here.
New new thoughts on locks given some "hands on" time is as follows: "We suck."
Keep in mind this isn't just "QQ people do more damage than me". I don't think any of us have a problem with that happening. Blizzard set out to do two things with our class for Wrath imo. #1. Boost the raid viability of Affliction and #2. Make sure no talent tree reduces our rotation to a single spell again. I imagine we're all ok with that in theory because Shadow Bolt spamming was boring as hell, and having different specs in the raid adds a variety and the idea of "Hey. I am contributing something unique to the raid".
The problem is that the way they decided to "fix" us was pretty stupid.
Affliction is probably ok for level 80 raiding since they've boosted the DoTs and they're ability to double proc via Pandemic and their overall damage via Haunt. The other great thing about Affliction is that all of the damage it does lies mainly inside the Affliction tree. What this means spcifically is you can load up the Affliction tree with your talents since the vast majority of your damage dealing abilities will be based in that tree. You may use Shadow Bolt as a filler, but it isn't going to be much more than that. Now there are talks of even giving DoTs the ability to crit. If that ever happens, then Affliction will be closer to being on par with what we're seeing with other classes and their current 3k DPS output. The problem is that 2-3 Affliction locks in a raid will eat up a ton of debuff slots, making it impractical at least until the debuff cap is raised even further.
Destruction is just FUBAR. ISB doesn't work with DoT damage, and our tree is centered around fire nukes, making ISB 5 talent points in our tree that aren't really meant for Destros to even use. Chaos Bolt and Conflag have issues in that they are counterproductive to having an actual rotation. Conflag kills Immolate (cutting off at least a tick of it, if not 2) which kills Incinerates. Backdraft looks like a decent benefit of using Conflag except that one of your 3 Destro spells is wasted in a sense just putting your Immolate right back up immediately. F&B is pretty weak that deep in the tree. While it does boost your Immolate damage and Conflag crit rate, it still nets less DPS than just ignoring Conflag in the first place (at least that has been my experience). It is just underwhelming for where it is located in the tree, especially compared to say Everlasting Affliction. Last, but certainly not least, we have Molten Core. MC sounds interesting at first, especially with Corruption being instant now and Imp CoA being a couple easy points, but doesn't really make too much sense in practice. Not only will you using up GCDs to put up shadow DoTs to proc it, they'll be weak DoTs unless you put +40 spell damage on your weapon instead of Sunfire. Doing that loses you 10 fire damage from your main damage nukes - not critical, but counterproductive. Not only that, but in order to make those DoTs even somewhat effective you'll need to pick up the +hit and +range talents in the Affliction tree as well. If you don't, then you may as well not have the Destruction based +hit and +range talents either (but good luck putting together a decent build without them). Having 36 yard range on half your spells and 30 on the other half is again just stupid if both spell types aren't optional for your rotation. There just isn't any flow to our talents or rotation; no cohesiveness behind it where you're building towards a central idea. Instead we're split down the middle like that half-Santa, Half-Frosty freak from Robot Chicken. Scaling isn't going to matter imo, since I'm still hit capped without talents atm, and have the crit, haste and spellpower you'd expect from an end game raider. If I'm 600-1000 DPS behind other people with my how my gear is relative to theirs now, then I don't think we'll see anything down the road to make up that gap.
Demonology is the redheaded stepchild of Warlock talent trees. I love it personally because demons are cool, but it is putting out the worst DPS of all 3 trees currently (not that it matters at 70 anyway - every tree just offers degrees of mediocrity now at this content level). The problem at Demo's core is that you spend all your points in the Demo tree only to have the majority of your DPS abilities be spread into either or both of the Affliction or Destruction trees. When ISB was nerfed to hell, it was probably Demonology that suffered the brunt of the impact. Metamorphosis is fun, but it is primarily a PvP talent 51 points deep into your tree. It has situational use for emergency off tanking I suppose, but it is laughable to consider that for anything more than an "Oh Shit!" button for 5 mans. The 20% damage buff is neat, but again it only lasts for 45 seconds every 3 minutes. If you really want to help Demonology, then eliminate the cooldown crap and just make this a permanent form like Shadow Form or Tree of Life. The PvP balance comes into play since Demon Form is banishable just like Trees are. Unfortunately there is nothing on the table about doing this. Finally, by the time you get finished with your Demo talents, you don't have enough left over to grab the +hit, +range and threat reduction talents of both Affliction and Destruction which leaves you with a whole other set of potential problems.
I apologize for the length of the post, but I think it is important to address the issue clearly with people so they know this isn't just a whine about not topping DPS meters. This is about not even showing up on the meters at all because of class design in a raid setting where the "utility" we offer is either redundant (one Healthstone at a time my ass), or unnecessary in the first place (CoE is a waste to apply since a Boomer can do the same thing as part of his damage rotation - Aff locks should be using CoA instead to boost both personal and raid DPS). Remember as trivial as our KJ kills may seem at this point, we did it with a lone Warlock in the raid (me) whose most valuable contribution was keeping CoR up so the "real DPSers" could kill the boss. This is a complete 180 from last week when even attempting M'uru without 2-3 Warlocks would have been unthinkable, not to mention KJ.
To top it all off, the only glyph I was really happy about just got nerfed as well...
"Glyph of Souls - Reduces the mana cost of your Ritual of Souls spell by 70%. (Old - Your Ritual of Souls spell no longer requires a Soul Shard.)"
Right, because I'm always so concerned with my mana usage BEFORE a pull. It isn't like we're dropping this thing in the middle of Brut saying "Oops! Sorry. Forgot to give you guys healthstones.... errr... healthSTONE."
Hate to add to the gloom and doom of this thread, but I'm looking for a reason to justify my raid spot and not finding one. If I were leading our raids at this point, I'd see no reason to have anything more than perhaps a single warlock in the raid - and that one would be there just to provide a healthstone, and perhaps a utility curse that a druid wasn't already covering somehow. |
Zadziwiające podobieństwo konkluzji :>
PS. Jeśli nie grasz lockiem i/lub nudzi Cię/przeszkadza Ci moje marudzenie, nie czytaj :P |
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drzewo jest przegięte :roll: |
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Wilk
Dołączył: 24 Lis 2007
Posty: 358
Skąd: Tomaszów Maz.
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| Wysłany: 2008-10-19, 18:04
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| o Elune... spraw, żeby włączyli już ten serwer :P |
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Demelain
alias Alishya
Dołączyła: 13 Lip 2007
Posty: 1923
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| Wysłany: 2008-10-22, 11:22
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| Blizzard (Ghostcrawler) napisał/a: | We have finished a fairly comprehensive look at the dps of various classes and specs and are concerned that warlock dps isn't quite where it should be. It's not abysmal by any means, but we think it should be a little higher.
To give warlocks a little extra nudge in PvP, we increased Soul Link up to 20% from 15%. You may already have this change.
In PvE, overall, we just think a lot of classes benefitted from getting the warlock buffs a little more than the locks benefited from getting everyone else's buffs. So we decided to just buff lock damage across the board (which will also help in PvP somewhat). Rather than change damage and coefficients of a lot of different ranks of spells, we just inflated talents that we were almost certain you'd already have. Shadow Mastery, Demonic Tactics and Emberstorm were all increased by 1% per rank for 5% total.
Let us know how that feels. The changes should go live before Nov 13. |
i...
| Blizzard (Ghostcrawler) napisał/a: | Demonic Empowerment removed from the GCD
We compared this talent to other talents, such as Bestial Wrath which is not on the GCD, and decided to remove Demonic Empowerment from the GCD. The potential damage loss should no longer be an issue. (Source)
Developers Q&A (Source)
Curse of Elements - Moonkin and Deathknights provide this 13% debuff as part of their normal dps rotation without losing any dps. Warlocks have to give up casting a DPS curse to provide only a 10% benefit OR we have to spec deep affliction to get 13% benefit, but we still lose a DPS curse by applying it. This seems to go against the new debuffing philosophy.
One, this is an entirely new system. It's going to take some time to see how it feels and tweaks on our part to get right. Assuming the overall change ends up feeling good, then we do need to look at situations where one class feels like they are paying substantially more (whether it's cost, talents, procs, giving up dps or whatever) than another class.
Second, we don't want the buffs to be utterly identical or we lose some of the differences between classes and ultimately depth to the game. While we do want to do more work on it per my above statement, if the litmus test for players is that their talent has the same number of ranks and is located in the same spot on the talent tree and has the same duration and the same ease to apply, they risk being disappointed.
Blood Pact (Imp) - This debuff is inferior to the other increased health buffs AND requires a specific pet out. This also seems against your new philosophy.
Our logic was the lock always had the option of bringing out another pet whereas the other class might have to respec or just end up with a buff that wasn't needed.
Stealth Detection channelled on VW - This seems really clumsy and difficult to use. Why did you move it from a passive buff on the FH to an active channel on the VW. Surely it would be better as a passive buff on the VW.
The Felhunter just felt like a jack-of-all-trades PvP pet. One of the things we're trying to do with locks is get more of the demons feeling useful. The Voidwalker gets used a lot while leveling and then gets parked, even though it is one of the more -- perhaps the most -- iconic pets. A passive buff is something we'll consider though.
Backdraft - Any plans to make this affect the GCD? I dont know if the tech can cupport this, but making immolate not consume a charge(and i guess not receive the haste) would really help. Also, is backlashed spells consuming the backdraft charges intended?
Affecting the GCD is always something we're reluctant to do. Removing Immolate would be possible -- it's just a change to the spell description. We can discuss it. Having backlash and backdraft play nice together is harder. This problem creeps up for a lot of different classes when one spell can proc multiple effects.
Demonic Empowerment - I think this would be good off of the GCD.
Like I said, the GCD is there for a reason and we are always hesitant to let players remove it. When we do, it's often because you have a very reactionary ability. What is it in DE that you need to right now without waiting?
Fire and Brimstone - Are you happy with this talent, especially at 5 points?
I think the talent is fine. Five points might be a little steep. We do need some 5 point talents, especially in that slot, and all of them (throughout the game) risk becoming too general purpose, and therefore mandatory, if we keep buffing their effects. I'll put it on the list for consideration though.
Glyph of Souls - Could you explain the reasoning for changing to this to -70% mana cost. I dont like using hyperbole, but I can't think of any circumstance where this would be beneficial or useful. Unless you are changing Ritual of Souls?
We felt like it was a band-aid to the actual problem, which is that shards have changed from something to power certain powerful warlock spells to a generic resource. Rather than give you a couple of places here and there to opt out of them, we'd prefer to change the whole system. Bigger changes unfortunately take more time, but it's something we are talking about right now.
Master Conjurer - Any chance on tuning this talent a bit - it's nearly there but just needs to provide a little bit higher buff to the stones imo.
There are technical limitations to that prevent some of the buffs we would ideally grant to the stones. We might end up having to redesign the talent slightly.
Curse of Exhaustion - What's the reasoning behind the nerf to 30%?
It was 30% for a long time. We tried it at 50%, but it's ranged and renewable so it seemed like it shouldn't be as good as Hamstring and Wing Clip.
Drain Mana - I think it's pretty safe to say all warlocks consider this spell to be of very limited use. It really seemed not to scale at 70, and at 80 it drains even less of a % of a targets mana pool. Have you considered Drain Mana's usefulness in the expansion?
Rank 7 drains more than rank 6 and so on, so it does improve with level. It doesn't scale in the coefficient sense. To answer your question, we have considered it and didn't find it to be much weaker than it is today. It's something to keep an eye on though.
Reading back on this makes me a little paranoid that you will interpret my answers as our feeling that locks are broken. That isn't the case. In a game of this size there are always some things you'd want to look at given more time. I have just tried to be candid about what some of those areas are for warlocks. They exist for all classes though. It's an MMO. It changes over time.
Warlock's trees balance and DPS
Warlock single-target dps should be competitive with mages, hunters and rouges. We try not to balance classes around their AE ability since that is situational (but often very useful).
In our internal tests, warlocks are close to mages and below hunters, which as I've already suggested (or was that in another thread?) is a problem. I often regret posting what we're seeing at the moment, because it just leads to other questions. I offer it only to say that we do not reach the conclusion that warlock dps is sub-par. Hunters may be OP however.
Affliction and Destro are pretty close. Affliction probably continues to be a trickier rotation to pull off, even with the recent (and previously announced) change to Haunt. We're not convinced yet that Affliction is the black diamond slope for experts only, but it's definitely something to keep an eye on.
Demonology may be lower, but we're also not sure it would be fair for Demo to get the extra survivability and do the same dps. However, we do think it is much less the case now that Demo = PvP only and Destro = PvE only. |
Może jest dla locków jakaś nadzieja :> |
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drzewo jest przegięte :roll: |
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Vegelus
RAAAAAGE!!!
Dołączył: 14 Lip 2007
Posty: 1104
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| Wysłany: 2008-10-22, 11:33
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Co do tego BW, to ciekawostka - bo obecnie Bestial Wrath jest na GCD (w TBC nie było) :P.
Ale tak ogólnie - a nie mówiłem że będzie dobrze? ;] |
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Incredible! You have managed to screw up the screw up! |
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Ranghar
soup is good food
Dołączył: 07 Kwi 2008
Posty: 402
Skąd: Wrocław
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Demelain
alias Alishya
Dołączyła: 13 Lip 2007
Posty: 1923
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| Wysłany: 2008-10-22, 11:44
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| Vegelus napisał/a: | | Ale tak ogólnie - a nie mówiłem że będzie dobrze? ;] |
Przynajmniej zauważyli, że coś nie bangla. Ale do entuzjazmu jeszcze mi daleko :P |
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drzewo jest przegięte :roll: |
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Nightblóód
Dołączył: 03 Lis 2007
Posty: 445
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| Wysłany: 2008-10-22, 15:36
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po przeprowadzeniu szeregu rerolli builda locka i treningach na manekinie, z tym samym gearem, bez dopalek i innych pierdol, w strzelaniu z miejsca i w biegu:
1. Glebokie Affli = 1100 - 1330 dps
2. Demo z (felguardem) 0/46/15/ = 1100 - 1450
3. Destro (fire, az do Chaos Bolt) = 1260 - 1560
Ad.1 W zasadzie nie wiedzialem co sie dzieje dookola, bo wpatrzony bylem w ClassTimera, aby we wlasciwym momencie wrzucic odpowiedni spell. Jak dla mnie odpada. Wystarczy sie ruszyc i cala pieprzona rotacje bierze w leb.
Ad.2 Demo nawet podobalo mi sie, bo moj spell dmg i crit skoczyl odpowiednio +1500 i 30%. Nie wiem jak by bylo w rajdzie z felguardem, bo wraz z petem wszystko inne pada. Guard wali rowniez z Clave'a, co znacznie podbija dps, ale przy sheepach trzeba by bylo o tym pamietac.
Ad.3 6/0/55. Prosta rotacja ;), w kazdym razie powtarzalna: Corruption, Immolate, Chaos Bolt, Incinerate kilka razy, Conflagrate na chwile przed skonczeniem sie immolate i wszystko od poczatku, bo CD schodza odpowiednio na czas. Dodatkowo crit peta i po kazdym Conflagrate redukcja castu 3 Destro spelli o 30% bardzo pomaga.Tym buildem osignalem najwiekszy dps na manekinie, przy czym na broni nadal mialem Soulfrosta - mozliwe ze po zmianie enchantu dps nieznacznie by podskoczyl. Dodatkowo jeden pkt w Imp Life Tape tez pomaga na "dlugich" walkach :)...i to chyba jest to przy czym zostane na razie.
EDIT:
Zapomnialem dodac ze jak impowi skonczy sie mana to troche sie komplikuje, i choc ja jeden pkt dalem w Demonic Power, to uwazam ze dla oszczednosci jego many lepiej w to nie inwestowac.
W buildy hybrydowe wogole nie warto bawic sie (przynajmniej z moim geraem)..nic sie nie zyskuje. |
| Ostatnio zmieniony przez Nightblóód 2008-10-23, 10:38, w całości zmieniany 1 raz |
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Nightblóód
Dołączył: 03 Lis 2007
Posty: 445
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| Wysłany: 2008-10-22, 16:16
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| dla tych co lubia kalkulatory w excelu: http://www.leulier.com/ ..teraz nawet importuje z armory |
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Demelain
alias Alishya
Dołączyła: 13 Lip 2007
Posty: 1923
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| Wysłany: 2008-10-22, 19:52
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| Cytat: | | Ad.1 W zasadzie nie wiedzialem co sie dzieje dookola, bo wpatrzony bylem w ClassTimera, aby we wlasciwym momencie wrzucic odpowiedni spell. Jak dla mnie odpada. Wystarczy sie ruszyc i cala pieprzona rotacje bierze w leb. |
Po dłuższym ćwiczeniu uważam, że ma to swój urok. Rotacja affli to właściwie nie rotacja tylko swoiste szachy, gdzie trzeba planować na kilka ruchów do przodu, uwzględniając timery, czasy castowania i specyfikę tego lub innego DoTa. Ale fakt, od pasków nie da się oderwać oczu ;)
Na kołku dps affli oszukuje, bo pandemic wchodzi za 1 dmg. Na podstawie recounta można sobie oszacować właściwe wartości. Po dodaniu pandemica udało mi się wykręcić coś koło 1600 dps (ciut ponad 1480 widoczne na recouncie). Używam CoA, Corr, UA, Immo, SL, Haunta i SB. Dla affli gorąco polecam trinket z trzeciego bossa w Magistracie.
| Nightblóód napisał/a: | | Ad.2 Demo nawet podobalo mi sie, bo moj spell dmg i crit skoczyl odpowiednio +1500 i 30%. Nie wiem jak by bylo w rajdzie z felguardem, bo wraz z petem wszystko inne pada. Guard wali rowniez z Clave'a, co znacznie podbija dps, ale przy sheepach trzeba by bylo o tym pamietac. |
Nie pamiętam wyniku własnych testów kołkowych, ale w rajdzie ten build może być na tym etapie dość interesujący. Koleś słabiej ubrany od nas chwalił się wwsem, z którego wynikało, że w 0/46/15 wykręcił na Teronie ponad 2100 dps. Build z Felkiem powinien się fajnie skalować z buffami rajdowymi: dla locka casterskie, dla peta melee. Dodatkowo zyskujemy na samym bufie staminowym i magowskim dla Felka, bo mamy premię do czarów od statystyk demona. Docelowo, przynajmniej w zamyśle Blizza, lock demo powinien mieć najsłabszy dps z trzech drzewek i najlepszą przeżywalność.
| Nightblóód napisał/a: | | Ad.2 6/0/55. Prosta rotacja ;) , w kazdym razie powtarzalna: Corruption, Immolate, Chaos Bolt, Incinerate kilka razy, Conflagrate na chwile przed skonczeniem sie immolate i wszystko od poczatku, bo CD schodza odpowiednio na czas. Dodatkowo crit peta i po kazdym Conflagrate redukcja castu 3 Destro spelli o 30% bardzo pomaga.Tym buildem osignalem najwiekszy dps na manekinie, przy czym na broni nadal mialem Soulfrosta - mozliwe ze po zmianie enchantu dps nieznacznie by podskoczyl. Dodatkowo jeden pkt w Imp Life Tape tez pomaga na "dlugich" walkach :) ...i to chyba jest to przy czym zostane na razie. |
Ludzie na forach proponują różne rotacje w tym buildzie. Jedni uważają, że CB powinien mieć priorytet i być używany na każdym CD (czyli co 12 sek.), inni, że najlepiej go używać bezpośrednio po Conflag (gdy odpali się Backdraft), a jeszcze inni, że w ogóle nie jest warty swojej ceny, tylko komplikuje rotację i najlepiej nie wchodzić w ten talent. Generalnie, oprócz Corr, większość dokłada do rotacji jeszcze CoA, bo nie tylko ma mocniejszy dps per casting time, ale też tika co 2 sek., zwiększając szansę na proca z Molten Core (Corr tika co 3 sek.)
W rotacji fajerowej teoretycznie powinno się uważać, żeby Conflag nie zjadł Immo, dopóki ostatnie Innci nie osiągnie celu. W praktyce jedna i druga opcja oznacza niestety stratę dpsa. Albo tracimy czas, albo dodatkowy dmg z Innci. A już na 100 proc. tracimy ostatni tik z Immo. Dlatego generalnie rotacja fajerowa, jako kanibalistyczna, kompletnie mi się nie podoba :P
| Nightblóód napisał/a: | | Zapomnialem dodac ze jak impowi skonczy sie mana to troche sie komplikuje, i choc ja jeden pkt dalem w Demonic Power, to uwazam ze dla oszczednosci jego many lepiej w to nie inwestowac. |
A co za różnica, czy Imp strzela szybciej i krócej, czy wolniej i dłużej? Tak czy siak, wystarczy mu many na tę samą liczbę strzałów, co nie? ;) I tak trzeba gdzieś zainwestować punkty na górze drzewka destro. Więc lepiej przyspieszyć cast impowi, bo w warunkach manapozytywnych będzie z tego przynajmniej minimalna korzyść.
| Nightblóód napisał/a: | | W buildy hybrydowe wogole nie warto bawic sie (przynajmniej z moim geraem)..nic sie nie zyskuje. |
Buildów hybrydowych warto będzie spróbować, ale dopiero na 80-tym levelu, co zresztą sugerowałam kilka postów temu. Układ Shadow Mastery/Shadow & Flame może być ciekawy - zwłaszcza po zapowiedzianym przez Blizza buffnięciu SM z 10 do 15 proc.
Uch! Ale sobie popisałam ;) |
_________________
drzewo jest przegięte :roll: |
| Ostatnio zmieniony przez Demelain 2008-10-22, 23:40, w całości zmieniany 1 raz |
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Keleborn
Dołączył: 13 Lip 2007
Posty: 572
Skąd: Gdańsk
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| Wysłany: 2008-10-22, 22:49
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| I tak na 80 zrobisz 5500 dps-a, hunterzy tyle samo a ja ze 3k i się wku... i rolnę np deathknighta. Amen. |
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Restor
Dołączył: 25 Paź 2007
Posty: 465
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| Wysłany: 2008-10-23, 09:09
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| Kel, skąd te whiny? Wg EJ, deathknight.info, wotlkwiki.com mag całkiem nieźle owni w WOTLK. |
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Kwinto
Piąte koło u wozu
Dołączył: 13 Lip 2007
Posty: 1866
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| Wysłany: 2008-10-23, 09:48
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| Kurde, jakoś mało DK-ów whinuje jeszcze, wystają z szeregu... Anybody? |
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